Thursday, March 9th 2023

AMD Ryzen 7045HX3D "Dragon Range" with 3DV Cache Should Technically be Possible

Editorial by
btarunr
 Discuss (31 Comments)
There are two distinct developments in the client processor space for AMD—first, its Ryzen 7000X3D desktop processors have managed to retain gaming performance competitiveness against Intel's fastest 13th Gen Core "Raptor Lake" processors; and second, that its Ryzen 7045HX "Dragon Range" mobile processors are picking up interest in the enthusiast-segment notebook community, where its advanced 5 nm + 6 nm process is dealing damage to 13th Gen Core mobile processors in performance/Watt, and gaming performance. Can AMD dial things up a notch? Technically, yes.

It should technically be possible for AMD to build "Dragon Range" multi-chip modules using "Zen 4" + 3D Vertical Cache CCDs (CPU complex dies), much in the same way it did for the desktop product stack. Such a processor would either have one CCD with the 3DV cache for a CPU core-count of up to 8-core/16-thread; or a contraption similar to the desktop 7950X3D, wherein one of the CCDs has 3DV cache, while the other is a regular "Zen 4" CCD, for core-counts of up to 16-core/32-thread. But will AMD build such chips? A lot would depend on the volumes of L3Ds (the 6 nm dies with the 64 MB 3D Vertical cache memory that operates at 2.5 TB/s), the production of CCDs with 3DV cache; and whether AMD is able to achieve the right performance/Watt numbers against Intel's fastest 8P+16E "Raptor Lake" mobile processors.
In an interview with Korean tech publication Quasar Zone, AMD client and business development manager Eddy Chang stated that the company would "plan products based on market conditions," in a response to a question on whether AMD could extend 3DV cache to other product segments, such as cheaper Ryzen 5 desktop SKUs, or mobile processors. The only mobile processor AMD has in its stack to which it can easily integrate 3DV cache would have to be "Dragon Range," since the engineering effort would be limited to adding a 3DV cache-equipped CCD, and optimizing the chip's power-management.
Sources: Quasar Zone, harukaze5719 (Twitter)

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31 Comments on AMD Ryzen 7045HX3D "Dragon Range" with 3DV Cache Should Technically be Possible

#1
Chrispy_
We can hope, but isn't power management a real issue with 3D v-cache? It runs at a narrower voltage range, preventing overclocking, underclocking, and since it's a lot of additional transistors there's presumably significant vampiric drain?

In saying that, Intel's 13th Gen mobile offerings are far from energy-sippers - there's a vocal majority of reviewers complaining about significant runtime reductions in this wave of 13th Gen laptop review. So it's not like AMD has to worry about runtime competition from Intel at least...
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#2
dj-electric
3DVC is a perfect match for something like gaming laptops.
Zen4 3DVC works at a slightly lower frequency, and also has lower heat, while giving more gaming performance. This is basically the recipe for a gold medal in laptop gaming chip design.
Make it happen, AMD.
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#3
n-ster
One benefit of 3DV Cache is that it could improve power efficiency
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#4
trsttte
Unlimited powahhh!!! :D

Now seriously, seems pretty straight forward as dragon range is just the same desktop cpu's but on a laptop, why would they go for that? The extra cache seems to barely provide any benefit on regular applications (let alone the ones that would run on a laptop) and would require a extra power to run. Maybe big chungus gaming laptops but are we really still doing that!?
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#5
R0H1T
Enter the dragon :pimp:
trsttteUnlimited powahhh!!! :D

Now seriously, seems pretty straight forward as dragon range is just the same desktop cpu's but on a laptop, why would they go for that? The extra cache seems to barely provide any benefit on regular applications (let alone the ones that would run on a laptop) and would require a extra power to run. Maybe big chungus gaming laptops but are we really still doing that!?
Why not? As long as they're enjoying those uber fat margins in there & pretty sure AMD will be better placed than Intel in this regard!
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#6
Daven
Chrispy_We can hope, but isn't power management a real issue with 3D v-cache? It runs at a narrower voltage range, preventing overclocking, underclocking, and since it's a lot of additional transistors there's presumably significant vampiric drain?

In saying that, Intel's 13th Gen mobile offerings are far from energy-sippers - there's a vocal majority of reviewers complaining about significant runtime reductions in this wave of 13th Gen laptop review. So it's not like AMD has to worry about runtime competition from Intel at least...
From what I’ve read, chips with 3DV cache seem to be more suited to the mobile space given the limits you just described not inspite of them. These types of chips are binned and/or configured for lower voltage while maintaining clock speeds on the non 3DV cache chiplet.
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#7
trsttte
dj-electricZen4 3DVC works at a slightly lower frequency, and also has lower heat, while giving more gaming performance. This is basically the recipe for a gold medal in laptop gaming chip design.
What??? That's only true when compared to the desktop parts, which are running with stupid high power targets, both nowhere reasonable for a laptop.
DavenFrom what I’ve read, chips with 3DV cache seem to be more suited to the mobile space given the limits you just described not because of them. These types of chips are binned and/or configures for lower voltage while maintaining clock speeds on the non 3DV cache chiplet.
They may be better chips, but the extra cache requires more power by itself (shown with the 5800x3d) and the benefits of said cache are questionable on a laptop - dragon range already has double the usual cache for laptops, they're desktop chips essentially.
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#8
Daven
trsttteUnlimited powahhh!!! :D

Now seriously, seems pretty straight forward as dragon range is just the same desktop cpu's but on a laptop, why would they go for that? The extra cache seems to barely provide any benefit on regular applications (let alone the ones that would run on a laptop) and would require a extra power to run. Maybe big chungus gaming laptops but are we really still doing that!?
Again, 3DV cache chips maintain non 3DV cache performance in apps that don’t care by using a heterogeneous configuration. And since these chips seem to sip power according to the reviews, an even more binned version would be most suitable for laptops. If Dragon Range 3DV cache chips perform the exact same in non gaming tasks but more performance in gaming tasks at lower power, why wouldn’t you ADD them to the existing SKUs for laptops? The consumer can choose which version is most suitable for their needs. And why would the laptops be thicker/bigger given 3DV cache version consumer less power than their non-3DV cache counterparts?
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#9
Colddecked
I think part of the problem is that AMD's mobile GPUs are so lacking compared to Nvidia, any x3d mobile chip would be paired with a 80 or 90 series gpu from Nvidia.
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#10
R0H1T
trsttteThey may be better chips, but the extra cache requires more power by itself (shown with the 5800x3d) and the benefits of said cache are questionable on a laptop
At lower clocks they will be more efficient. Also the package is smaller(physically?) IIRC.
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#11
Daven
ColddeckedI think part of the problem is that AMD's mobile GPUs are so lacking compared to Nvidia, any x3d mobile chip would be paired with a 80 or 90 series gpu from Nvidia.
An AMD 16 core 3DV cache mobile CPU combined with an Nvidia mobile GPU would be the most powerful and efficient gaming laptop configuration to date. I don’t see a problem with that offering.
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#12
trsttte
DavenAnd why would the laptops be thicker/bigger given 3DV cache version consumer less power than their non-3DV cache counterparts?
We're talking about desktop parts, the 3d cache versions consume less power because they were tuned that way (the non 3d are tuned to waste power pretty much). Dragon range is already tuned to use less power to fit in a laptop, you wouldn't see the same benefit, quite the opposite as the cache needs extra power to run.

The kind of laptop that uses a desktop chips is always on the big side, i'm all for making 3d cache standard but in a laptop seems like a detriment to being somewhat portable with some battery life.
DavenAn AMD 16 core 3DV cache mobile CPU combined with an Nvidia mobile GPU would be the most powerful and efficient gaming laptop configuration to date. I don’t see a problem with that offering.
I see many problems, from the price premium of a 16 core desktop chip on a laptop (and 16 cores on a laptop for gaming?) and the price of a configuration that also combines that with a high end nvidia gpu, to the sheer size of such a monstrosity. But hey, people are free spend their money however they like
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#13
Colddecked
DavenAn AMD 16 core 3DV cache mobile CPU combined with an Nvidia mobile GPU would be the most powerful and efficient gaming laptop configuration to date. I don’t see a problem with that offering.
I don't have a problem with that either, but AMD probably would like to get at least a part of that pie. It's just speculation but they may want to hold off a mobile x3d chip until they have gpus that can compete.
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#14
Assimilator
Technically it should be possible since "Dragon Range" is just desktop Zen 4 in different packaging, but I wonder about the Z-height.
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#15
Chaitanya
3DVcache certainly seems to be extremely helpful for iGPUs so these mobile chips with 3DV cache can kill off the market for those low end nVidia GPUs.
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#16
TumbleGeorge
They better take care of increasing the production and availability of their mobile processors in general. A market is not conquered through scarcity.
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#17
AnotherReader
trsttteThey may be better chips, but the extra cache requires more power by itself (shown with the 5800x3d) and the benefits of said cache are questionable on a laptop - dragon range already has double the usual cache for laptops, they're desktop chips essentially.
It seems many reviews didn't test idle power, but those that did, reported that the stacked cache didn't have additional idle power consumption. In addition, laptops usually ship with JEDEC memory so the gain from the additional cache will be greater than that seen in the reviews for the 7950X3D.

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#18
TheinsanegamerN
trsttteWe're talking about desktop parts, the 3d cache versions consume less power because they were tuned that way (the non 3d are tuned to waste power pretty much). Dragon range is already tuned to use less power to fit in a laptop, you wouldn't see the same benefit, quite the opposite as the cache needs extra power to run.

The kind of laptop that uses a desktop chips is always on the big side, i'm all for making 3d cache standard but in a laptop seems like a detriment to being somewhat portable with some battery life.
Somehow, you have figured that the even more tightly tuned dragon ridge is going to pull more power then the desktop parts when given the same cache. Because apparently cache is more power hungry when in a laptop because.....uhhh.......?
trsttteI see many problems, from the price premium of a 16 core desktop chip on a laptop (and 16 cores on a laptop for gaming?) and the price of a configuration that also combines that with a high end nvidia gpu, to the sheer size of such a monstrosity. But hey, people are free spend their money however they like
You really think a 45w CPU requires a monstrosity of a laptop? Do you think its 2005? Thin gaming machines already cope with high power usage today from intel, and AMD solution would be easier to manage.
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#19
DY69SX
Hmmm Steam Deck 3 x3D
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#20
AnarchoPrimitiv
AMD could make this part, but would anyone want it besides a handful of enthusiasts? Also, I feel like AMD could make this, and even if it was hands down the fastest, most efficient gaming chip in the world, I think AMD would STILL be dealing with OEMs who show no interest....AMD has had great mobile offerings since Zen2, but OEMs don't seem to use them....probably because AMD doesn't have the same amount of money to throw at them as Intel for "design services", etc (and by "design services ", I mean bribes and kickback, because let's be honest, that's what's occurring, OEMs are basically saying to AMD: "We're not going to use your chips unless you pay all our costs")
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#21
Xajel
Z-height is also an issue, as the 3D Cache adds a slight but noticable increase in the Z-height, this isn't a big issue in desktops as the IHS can be milled to the spec. But in mobile there's no IHS, meaning an X3D mobile CPU will require a modified cooling plate making it -the cooling assembly- incompatible with non-X3D designs.
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#22
Count von Schwalbe
It seems to me that AMD could gimp the clock speeds of DR-X without hurting performance. This could be a big boon to efficiency.

Also, don't the sockets for Zen 5 include separate voltage input for cache and core?
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#23
Wirko
XajelZ-height is also an issue, as the 3D Cache adds a slight but noticable increase in the Z-height, this isn't a big issue in desktops as the IHS can be milled to the spec. But in mobile there's no IHS, meaning an X3D mobile CPU will require a modified cooling plate making it -the cooling assembly- incompatible with non-X3D designs.
At least on Zen 3, both the ccd and the cache die are thinned down, and AMD did reveal the thickness (50 um each, I think).
Posted on Reply
#24
rv8000
trsttteWe're talking about desktop parts, the 3d cache versions consume less power because they were tuned that way (the non 3d are tuned to waste power pretty much). Dragon range is already tuned to use less power to fit in a laptop, you wouldn't see the same benefit, quite the opposite as the cache needs extra power to run.

The kind of laptop that uses a desktop chips is always on the big side, i'm all for making 3d cache standard but in a laptop seems like a detriment to being somewhat portable with some battery life.



I see many problems, from the price premium of a 16 core desktop chip on a laptop (and 16 cores on a laptop for gaming?) and the price of a configuration that also combines that with a high end nvidia gpu, to the sheer size of such a monstrosity. But hey, people are free spend their money however they like
The 7950X3D provides more performance in gaming apps in a smaller power envelope at lower temps, without any hard evidence it’s more likely to assume 3D vcache would be of MORE benefit to a mobile CPU where clocks/tdp/temps are already narrower/lower; this would likely lead to a big game performance benefit and an even smaller performance deficit in non gaming workloads due to lower boost targets/durations on mobile chips.
Posted on Reply
#25
Darmok N Jalad
trsttteWhat??? That's only true when compared to the desktop parts, which are running with stupid high power targets, both nowhere reasonable for a laptop.



They may be better chips, but the extra cache requires more power by itself (shown with the 5800x3d) and the benefits of said cache are questionable on a laptop - dragon range already has double the usual cache for laptops, they're desktop chips essentially.
Yes, but this technology is also fairly new. There’s nothing saying they won’t improve on the concept and bring in more power management in future generations. As was mentioned above, the iGPU would likely see a huge benefit from this fast local cache pool, perhaps like we already see from Infinity Cache on desktop GPUs. The larger this 3DV, the better it could get, to the point that AMD’s mobile CPUs could start growing the IGP in future generations and we actually see solid performance. Seems like it would get them some more laptop design wins if OEMs might be able to sell entry level gaming laptops without a dGPU entirely.
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